Welcome again to in the office podcast with myself, Adam Scorey and our founder, Jon. Welcome, John. Hiya.

 Hiya. Are you well? Very well.

Thanks very much. How are you? I'm good.

Thank you very much. Excited about the topic that we're talking about today, which what problem does desk booking solve for you? So I guess, Jon, you've got a lot more history than this.

Let's start with a little bit of history, shall we? What is desk booking software? Where did it come from?

Yeah, it's really, really fun. I think it's fun, which is probably not too cool. It's a really fun topic.

Yeah. So the thing that everyone's talking about at the moment, especially in relation to hybrid working is desk booking software. That seems to be the go-to solution.

And whenever I'm talking to people and trying to work out what they actually need for their company, it's always useful to actually delve into what desk booking is there to solve. If you actually look back at the history of it, pre-pandemic, when the popularity of it was rising, it was mainly being used by companies where they had teams that weren't in the office all the time, like sales teams or maintenance teams where they might need a desk every now and again, but not all the time. And companies realised that actually they had huge amounts of office space that wasn't being used.

So what do we do? Well, we'll get rid of most of that and then get desk booking software. So when people do want to come in, they can book a desk and basically not have redundant space.

So pre-pandemic, it was all about hot-desking and how do we make the most out of the space that we've got? Companies also who are moving office where you'd go into a WeWork, for example, for six months would then use the WeWork desk booking. And again, it was sort of the start of the more popularised hybrid working that we've got now where people were allowed to work from home a bit more.

But really, desk booking was designed for someone to be able to look at a floor plan and say, right, I know that on Tuesday, there's a free desk there because it's highlighted in green. I'm going to click on it and book on it. Right.

So I know I can go into the office on Tuesday. And that was pretty much it. Then obviously we had the pandemic.

And as things started to open up, that's when it starts to be more of a, OK, so how are we going to manage things going forwards? Ah, well, there's this thing called desk booking. So let's put that in place.

And that's sort of the history of where it came from. Yeah. So I guess now, you know, we've come through the pandemic.

We didn't need desk booking software, you know, during the pandemic for most of us because we were working from home. Pandemic now has officially been over for a few months now. What's the situation now?

Because there's a lot of news going on at the minute with big company CEOs saying we need to come back. What comes next now with desk booking software from that point of view after the pandemic? Yeah.

So, yeah, as the as the pandemic sort of eased and we were allowed to meet up again and, you know, and bear in mind, this was a couple of years ago. We've been through this process of basically running around with our hair on fire, trying to work out how to not all fall down the plug hole of doom into the abyss. And the solution did seem to be that, well, we need people back in the office.

So we need to be able to manage that. And I think that was the really clear thing, that it was a how do we manage the office space when we've got, you know, bearing in mind, initially, when we first came back, it was the government advice was you shouldn't be more than like 50 percent capacity because we have to have enough space for people to get in. So how do we manage that?

Well, lots of people wanted to come back in because we're all fed up of, you know, working from our bedrooms. So we have to put desk booking systems in place to make sure that we don't become oversubscribed. Yeah, that's all made perfect sense.

But then as you actually started to look at what was happening after that, we then had, as you said, the CEO saying, well, actually, we rather people did come back or we're going to make big decisions based on very little information or data. We're going to apply that across the whole company and hopefully everything's going to work out all right and we're going to be productive. And obviously what's happened from that is that it's very clear that the office, I know we've talked about before, the office has emerged more as this productivity tool because people can be productive in other places.

So it became less about managing the office as a as a tool and more about trying to manage people and their time and make sure they come back into the office. Interesting point that you make actually around how leaders within businesses made decisions because they looked, tended to look at very large organisations and made the assumption or they had did actually have more data because they had 10,000 people, 100,000 people. So what were they doing?

And the assumption was, well, if we follow them, that just that's a good place to start. It wasn't about individuals. It wasn't necessarily about an individual culture or methodology.

It was we don't know. They've got information. What are they doing?

Let's follow them for a bit. Yeah, absolutely. And it's very much, you know, there's I'm not having a go at those decisions.

You know, when you're in crisis mode, you have to make bold decisions and you have to move forwards. Otherwise, you know, everything falls apart. So I think those decisions were right.

And at least, you know, leaders were leading by saying this is the way we're going to act. So, you know, that's brilliant. But what we tended to see was there would be either they would look at bigger companies who might have data on this before or they would try to use the data.

Make decisions about the future of their office. And there are loads of stories of companies where they did roll out desk booking systems. You know, the first year I'd say after things came out, that was all about, you know, desk booking systems were really, really hot topic.

You know, we do desk booking as well. And things where crazy with the amount of interest that we were getting. But then because the systems firstly take quite a long time to implement and tended to be from a pre-pandemic sort of world of, well, this is a system.

This is an IT system that you roll out in this way that it takes this amount of time that you have to sign up for this amount of this length of contract. And then people are going to use it because it's designed for those salespeople who, you know, it only takes one time that you turn up to the office and there isn't a desk for you to go. I have to book a desk.

Otherwise, I don't think I have to go back home again. So that was sort of the big rush and the stories that have come out. There was one of our clients who, as everything was sort of, they weren't our clients at the time.

But as things were opening up, they went, right, we've got a 100-person company. We've got a really expensive office. And firstly, we know we during the pandemic, we can only be 50 percent capacity.

So what we'll do is we'll put desk booking systems in place and we'll get people to use it. And then we can work out what we do with the office when the pandemic actually sort of eases up. And the thing that they found was very quickly, they realised that people just weren't using the office.

So according to the desk booking system, no one was coming into the office. It was about 10 percent of the 100-person company. So it's really lucky that it was the 100-person company.

So 10 people effectively on average per day were coming in. And I think this is where you have to really look at the underlying problem of what you're trying to solve here. So if you're in facilities management or office management or operations, you're all about the smooth running of the company.

If you're in HR, you're more about the individual people. And what tends to happen was the job of getting people back to the office and managing the office was falling to the facilities managers. And so they would then find IT systems, talk to IT, they go, yep, this all works.

They do the rollout. But there was very little work done on are we making sure that people are actually using this? So with this 100 person company, they saw that 10 percent of people were coming in.

They made the bold decision to go, well, firstly, we're going to save a huge ton of money if we don't have a 100-person office. And so we'll reduce it to a 20-person office. So, you know, that's quite a big, big jump.

They reduced it on the first week. They were oversubscribed every day. Probably expected as it was a new office, so people were coming back.

But then they after a couple of months, they realised they actually had to pass a policy to prevent the number of, you know, to reduce the number of days that people could come into the office because there was always oversubscribed. And I was chatting to the facilities manager and the IT manager about this and trying to understand why this was coming back. So obviously they were then getting it in the neck from the CEO who was saying, what have you done?

You know, we've got these people who are now saying they're less productive because they wanted to be in. And it turns out when we actually looked at all of the systems that what happened was people just weren't using it. And that's, you know, it's another thing.

Yeah. And because at the time that, you know, 100-person company, they had 100 desks. So why would you go onto a system to book your desk that, you know, is there, you know, you just turn up.

And I think that highlights one of the core problems with this sort of desk booking solution is that it focuses on the office and managing the office. And unless there is a pain point for the users in using that tool, which is the turning up and there isn't a desk, you don't use it. It's just another thing for you to have to use.

And, you know, that sort of aligns very nicely with the stats on releasing software within a company. You know, software is only useful if people use it. And I think the stats from a Gallup survey was something like two and a half percent of companies reported that their IT rollouts were actually successful in 2000.

Two-and-a-half percent. And that's, you know, according to did people use it? Was it timely?

Was it within budget? Was it actually finished? All of these success criteria.

But yeah, two and a half percent. And, you know, it's so clear it's because the solution that was being rolled out wasn't really fit for the problem they were trying to solve. And so people didn't use it.

And so they ended up in trouble. Goodness me. I mean, the cost of software these days.

I mean, I implemented a piece of software in a business I was working for and it cost something in excess of $80,000. And it actually took us about a year to really. We're a relatively small team running it.

And there was one person in particular that was doing the lion's share of the work. You know, everything you had to pay for any training. You know, there was quite a few thousand dollars worth of training thrown in there and three or four people did that.

And then the ongoing support was very much. Well, it felt like there's an SLA. But it was very difficult because we were it was an American piece of software, and we were back in the UK.

So we were always behind. So it just it became very complex, frustrating and in fact, time consuming. And yeah, expensive to actually do it.

I mean, a year later and yes, it was done. So I can understand that. But also, the larger the company, the harder it is to actually implement change with software because you've got to have systems in place.

But to change that system is a monumental task. There's a famous Franklin Covey quote, actually, that will always stick with me is with people slow is fast and fast is slow. You have to go at their pace to make these changes.

Yeah. So yeah, it's no different. It's not the be all and end all of the panacea of kind of fixing everything.

If it, as you say, is not being used. Yeah. And it's I mean, it's very typical, you know, even in some of the companies I've worked in where they've been, you know, 10 to 30 people.

Even their software can be difficult because people are always resistant to change. Always. You know, it's it does become this other thing to do.

The other thing to use and the key issue is if it doesn't actually solve a problem that that person has, why would you use it? Why would you go to the effort of actually doing it? You know, there's another company I spoke to where they had desk booking.

They're a multinational law firm, so huge. And I think their desk booking onboarding took almost a year. And by that point, they had to keep changing the interactive floor plans because the decisions internally were, well, actually, we don't want to use that floor or people just aren't coming in.

This will move that stuff around. So they had to keep changing that. So, you know, all of these delays happen and happen, happen.

And you're telling your staff, don't worry, we've got desk booking software coming. Oh, yeah, it's going to be another month. Yeah, we're not quite finished.

And when it was finally released, I spoke to her. I was like, you know, how is it going? How was the whole thing?

She was like, well, you know, it's a really great bit of software. It's really, really clever. It's amazing.

I just can't get people to use it. Yeah, that's, you know, so is that software release a success? Probably not.

And, you know, the next year was trying to force people to use it and trying to remind them continually to do it. And that's just, you know, you don't have to be reminded to use your phone to send an email on your smartphone. It's just something that helps you do something.

Yeah. And I guess as well, the thing that comes to mind is the pain point at that stage was, right. We've got we don't want to spend the money on a hundred-person office because we don't need it anymore because we're happy to have this hybrid working policy and remote working policy.

So but the individuals where they consulted, you know, was it. Oh, yeah, that's a great idea. Because what you'll find is if you bring people in into a challenge to solve a problem, they actually the uptake and the investment in there and then the long term success of that is much, much higher than just somebody dictating from above and going, right, we're going to do this because it suits the business to save a million pounds a year on property costs and all the things there.

So facilities managers going, oh, crikey, my job's changing. Individuals going, well, why are we doing that? I actually quite like having my desk.

Why are we not doing my desk? And actually, yes, even then the problem wasn't that they wanted to save the money because that, you know, the CEO wasn't going, well, I don't want to be spending this sort of money on an office. It was if people aren't using it, then we don't want we want to make the saving.

If people want to use it, we want them to be productive. You know, it's they were the real problem when you actually came down to it. It was one of those, you know, what was coming down the pipeline was, you know, Chinese was the whole way where it just it sort of changed very slightly.

And it ended up being someone going, oh, well, the CEO wants us to save money on our real estate. So what can we do to do that? Let's see how people are using it.

So let's put in desk booking. So you've already got two mistakes there as to what the core problem was. And so it ended up, you know, just missing the mark.

Well, missing the mark a bit on the data they were retrieving. You know, there was no check on that data that was coming out of, you know, let's check in log in. Let's check log in times.

How many people have actually used it at all? Let's run a survey of of to try to understand that core data that would actually give them the information so that they go, OK, only 10 percent of people are doing that. But who's in the office?

It's the office manager there who can actually see that it's 20 people each day. They're just not booking a desk. So the other side of that then is for people who either didn't know that there was desk booking software available or there was systems that they could use.

They reverted to Excel spreadsheets. Yeah. Just doing nothing.

I mean, of course, what we're talking about here for remote sales teams, for example. Probably a lot of those are going, what's the problem? There's a certain cohort of people, the people who do come into the office on a daily basis that this post-pandemic, what are we doing now?

Anyway, let's go back to the point that I made about what other tools were people using then instead of if they weren't using desk booking software? Because I guess, you know, I mentioned Excel spreadsheet. I can't imagine a facilities manager, a team leader or something having to run using Excel spreadsheet.

Yeah. Well, so that's so there was lots of Excel spreadsheets. Most people, you know, most people were that was the default.

And quite rightly so, because that does collect the majority of the information. But there's obviously there are issues with that, that, you know, how do you keep the data clean? How can you know if people are typing stuff into a spreadsheet, how do you make sure that, you know, someone doesn't accidentally delete the last three weeks of data?

Or are you actually just doing it week on week? In which case there's no data that you can rely on to to make informed decisions. The other thing that obviously for a lot of companies seem to be an easy win was to use the sort of access data.

So, you know, swiping in and out. And that can be quite useful for some people. There are loads of issues with that.

You know, I used to work in workforce management where it was all about shift starting and stopping. And how do you make sure that people are actually turning up for their shift? Because, you know, there's the typical, well, if you've got a check-in card, you go to the machine, you clock in.

And actually, there's one of your mates there with all of the cards just clocking in everyone at the beginning of the shift. And then at the end of it clocks out and people haven't turned up. So there's, you know, there are issues like that.

There's tailgating as you go through. So, you know, if you've got barriers and you just not and this isn't also blaming anyone. This is just something that happens.

You know, you're having a conversation with someone and you might walk through if the barriers don't, you know, chop you in half as they as they close. But also there's a huge element of data protection that is being hit by this. So if you're providing, you know, if people don't know that their data, which is their clock in data or their access data for any rooms around the building.

If they don't know that that data is being used, firstly, it's being processed by someone that they don't know is being processed. So their managers looking at a spreadsheet of everyone. That's a problem.

If they don't know that it's being used, especially for companies where they then said, well, if you're not turning up to the office three days a week, then there are going to be ramifications. You know, that's actually attaching a performance metric to something that you never, you know, that wasn't part of their employment contract. So that's a problem.

But also it comes down to what data are you providing? Because can you then see that, you know, Joe's down the road is Joe in the other office is actually using a card on the door that goes to the toilet. So you can actually track how many times they're doing something like that.

You know, this it gets quite creepy with the data that you can get. So while they were using that, my advice was always, well, you should probably stop because you can. Yeah.

You know, the people weren't what people aren't aware of it, that they might have rights. It only takes one court case for this to then completely blow up. So, you know, use a user tool that's designed to manage the situation.

It's not about the office. It's about the people. That's where all of the problems come back to.

How do you get people to schedule their time properly rather than what's happening in the office? That's the core. So there's kind of three phases or three, certainly two problems or challenges that desk booking software kind of started out as a, you know, how to manage hot desk, you know, for a sales team to come in.

Or if you've got people from a different country, you know, coming from the States to a London office. And it's what I need to make sure. So it was as it was more of a facilities booking system to make sure people knew how to sleep.

Pandemic came along through that all up in the air because no one was at the office or very few people were. And it wasn't an issue because there were a load of desks everywhere going, you know, you can pick and choose. You could have one every hour if you wanted to.

Then post pandemic, everything changed again. And we were trying to find our way to go. Actually, what we're trying to do now is balance that we've given trust to people that work from home.

They've been productive. That was our biggest fear. That's not a fear anymore.

So now what is the office? OK, we're trying to work that out. So the desk booking softwares, in theory, would have had to evolve again into this kind of hybrid version of itself.

Yeah. A new challenge that it wasn't designed to do. But kind of shoehorned.

Well, what do we do now post pandemic? Because if it's just about booking desks and people have said it's a different challenge we're facing because everybody's realised as far as I understand it, that actually the job that you're doing in productivity aren't based on you bum on a seat in an office anymore. It's much wider.

You know, you can go and sit in a Costa because that's what we did. Sometimes we went, OK, well, the office was, you know, we had to be two meters apart, which means that only half the office could be in. I don't want to work at home anymore because I've got builders coming in.

Where am I going to go and sit and work? Well, I'll go and sit in a Costa or a Nero or somewhere where I can work and still be productive. So desk booking software, that's like, woo, out there.

So that's, yeah, this is the new challenge, I guess, that we face now is it's everything's changed. And has it caught up to that challenge, do you think? Well, I'd say in 99% of the cases, no.

And we can see that with the reactions of the sort of flip flopping of CEOs saying, we're going to be fully remote, although we can't be fully remote, we've got to be fully in the office. And that argument between the two extremes of, you know, remote work and fully in the office. So, yeah, nothing's caught up.

And a lot of that, I think, is because this is a changing scenario. You know, it's constantly changing because no one really knows what we haven't solved it. And a lot of companies haven't started that process of what works for us.

Yeah, it's still a, well, that works for them, right. We'll hold on to that and say that's what we want, because everyone's looking for that magic pill that solves the whole process. Because, you know, we're the best one in the world.

Hybrid working does create issues because there are, of course, there are issues because it's a new way of working. But just like every innovation that's happened where suddenly, you know, when fax machines came along, suddenly that changed the way we're going to work. When computers came on, that changed the way we work.

There are always people that go, oh, no, I don't want to. I don't want to read a book on a screen. I want to sit and have a manual copy.

You know how many Kindles get sold. So, you know, there will be a slow migration and everything will eventually get sorted out. But a lot of the desk booking systems, in my opinion, that have been around are still primarily focused on the office.

And that's no longer the problem that we're trying to solve. The problem we're trying to solve is workspace. It's not a single building.

It's a where are you working? Is your workspace the cost of coffee or is it your desk at home? Is it your kitchen table in the summer?

Is it a park bench in the park? It varies. And we can't say that this is the solution for the whole year.

It has to also change depending on who you are, what job you're doing, what your family circumstances are like, what time of year it is. As the energy prices skyrocket, are you going, well, actually, I can leave my house cold at home and go into an office? You know, it's all of these things are changing variables where we don't know what the outcome is.

So in order to deal with that, we need solutions which are really flexible, really quick to implement and get the engagement from the staff. You know, if you if you spend a year implementing some software where it doesn't then solve the problem, doesn't give you the data, then you're going to be a year behind everyone else. So one of the interesting things that I felt after doing my research, writing the blogs and working with in the office is the power struggle has changed a little bit.

I mean, we talk about, you know, there's a jobs market, a car market, there's supply and demand. And I suppose that's the same thing with being in the office or out in that the power of the business outweighed in the past pre-pandemic. They dictated the circumstances for work.

The pandemic came along and that threw everything out. The power was then balanced more to the individual and therefore the thought process and the mindset around what the office is was going to become started to come to the surface. And therefore, conversations around the individual and their personal circumstances.

You know, you talk about the tasks that people have to do, personal circumstances and productivity, whatever the case may be. There's a Venn diagram of three things. I think you were creating a Venn diagram the other day, weren't you?

The elements were team requirements, personal circumstances and tasks. Now, that balance is very much more in the individual's hands to discuss with a team leader, a manager, a CEO, depending on the size of the company. And those factors now, the individual are much more prominent in conversations.

It's not about money, it's not about desks, it's about the individual. Now, if you're talking about desk software, solving desk booking software, solving that problem, it's like there's no chance. It doesn't equate for a, you know, one of our other podcasts, we're talking about the office as a product and facilities managers being product managers.

So in this case, it's presenteeism appears to be rising to the surface again. And the power balance is shifting perhaps back to offices because of the financial climate. So it's a really complex, moving part that we're facing, that we're asking software that was designed to do a job over here, that's not really changed, to do something different.

Well, actually, what I spoke over you at the last second there, when you said, you know, be more human. This is a human problem that we're trying to solve. It's all about people.

And whereas pre-pandemic, you know, if you were able to work from home, it was usually seen as a benefit, as a, you know, almost like you can slack off for a day by working from home because you're senior enough. And that was, you know, that's even now, that's how it's seen is if you're working from home, lots of people say you're slacking off. You know, we've talked about, you know, CEOs, Elon Musk and the things that they've said, which is always incredibly insulting for a lot of people who are productive working from home.

But there's, I think the thing here is that there isn't one right party. You know, you've got every company or any data that you see or any blog post or LinkedIn post or anything like that where they're saying, oh, this is the death of hybrid working or these people are right, these people are wrong. All of that is rubbish because it's not a one size fits all.

It depends on the individual people. And that's why you, that's why hybrid working actually gets more complicated because you've got to understand, really deeply understand all of the people that are working with you and for you. And it's only then that you can start to go, actually, these people are so much more productive working from home.

But this person over here, when I know when they're at home, they don't do as much, they get distracted very easily. So I need them to be in the office and I need to, I need to be in the office so that I can manage them. It's not fair for me to say, right, you've got to be in the office five days a week.

I'm going to go off home. But by the way, I'm still managing you. So that's where, with that Venn diagram, the different, the different things influence different people in different ways.

And it's constantly changing because the person who might not be able to work from home initially because they are learning when they get to a certain stage, they might actually then be better off being out of the office and working remotely because they've now reached that level where they can, they can do stuff by themselves. You know, they've reached a level of seniority. So it's a, it's a people issue that you've got to understand the people and not focus on the place.

Yeah, I totally agree. And one of the challenges, I mean, I mentioned when I did my research about WeWork as an example, they seem to really head of the game in looking at these collaborative office spaces, working spaces. And it's 1995.

So whether that guy was an alien and came down and said, or had a crystal ball, I don't know. But a lot of businesses aren't able to do that. And they can't solve the problem like larger business would and have, you know, a 10-office company, a 10-person company doesn't have a little pod to meet in or free beer here.

Or, right, there's a collaborative workspace we can write on the walls, you know. But what you can do is then use the tools at your disposal, i.e. working from home, working from a Costa, meeting in a pub if necessary, or whatever the case may be. So the tools at your disposal are there, but you just don't think of home as the tool as much as the office is a tool.

Yeah. And this, this is where the desk booking systems missed it. Because they, they do focus on that one location, or maybe if you've got, you know, multiple office buildings, they focus on those, but they're not focusing on what happens the rest of the time.

And it's that, well, are you actually, are you at home? Are you at a Costa coffee? Are you going to the pub?

If you're going to a Costa and you live near other people, are there other people that go, I don't want to go into the office because I'll get distracted by something else or whatever it is. But I can see that you're going to a Costa and actually we need to have a chat. So I'm going to go to the same Costa.

That's where I think in the future, we're going to start going where actually it's sort of where more location agnostic. And it's more about meeting up for those interactions that the CEOs that say you've got to be in the office five days a week. Otherwise, you don't get those collaborative moments.

That's where it's going to happen. It's going to be more planned. But it's also going to be, well, actually, what's the best place for you to turn up?

Is it that it's a Costa? Is it that you go to a bowling alley and just relax with people and you can sort of get out of your head and then suddenly inspiration sparks? You know, that's I think where it's going to go because as I said, everyone's different.

I mean, me, for example, you know, I work from a wee work. This week, as you can see, I'm at home and I've been at home the whole of this week. That doesn't mean that I don't like going into the office.

I love going into the office. I get some of my best work done there. But I know for the jobs that I'm doing this week, like this video, being at home means that it's quiet and I can be more productive here.

So it's interesting, isn't it? So ultimately, what we're saying is the evolution or even revolution needs to be for it needs to be a tool for office managers, desk booking software. It needs to be a team for CEOs and leaders.

It needs to be a team for an IT business, for an IT department, sorry, trying to infrastructure in or, you know, depending on the approach, but also then a tool for HR. So there is a super complex ring of kind of four different parts of the business that need to be able to support individuals in how they work best to be the most productive to get to the outcomes. Ultimately, what the business is trying to do.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's, you have to have all of those stakeholders giving input, including the managers and the employees themselves. And then, but the tool, the tool that you're using has to be flexible enough that you can say, we're going to try this for a bit, see if it works at this time of year.

And we have to have open conversations about actually, you know what, last week I was in the office five days and I felt like I didn't get anything done because all we did was catch up on things. I really need to be alone for the next week so that I can get these tasks done. So, you know, might be a naive view, but generally I feel people do want to do well.

And no one likes to know that their boss is going to have a go at them because the work that they said they were going to do isn't being done. You know, that's, that's a horrible place to be. If people, some people obviously don't necessarily have the same level of ambition, but that's then a managerial issue.

And again, that then with the Venn diagram, that affects how the manager should work with that person, because ultimately the manager is there to try to make sure that person succeeds and does well. But yeah, it's basically the key things I think with desk booking software is that it doesn't solve all the problems. It solves the office management problem, but also the majority of them are too inflexible to work in the current day and age.

We need something that focuses on where people are, not just the office and is flexible enough to allow people to try different things and work out what works for them and their team. Brilliant. Jon, thanks again.

Great to chat with you and kind of lift the lid on a problem that is, or a challenge or something that affects every business out there that has a combination of people working from home and offices. So thanks for your time. Look forward to chatting on the next podcast about the next subject.

Thanks, Jon. Jon and I really hope that you enjoyed and really got something meaningful from our latest episode of the podcast. If you'd like to comment, reach out to us and share your thoughts and ideas, we'd love to hear from you.

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